[2007-09-01 23:02:14] okay, let's begin. [2007-09-01 23:02:15] and mine! [2007-09-01 23:02:29] okay. [2007-09-01 23:02:34] anyone shows up late, we give them the raspberry :) [2007-09-01 23:02:50] no idea what that is, but ok... [2007-09-01 23:03:18] I don't have a real list of agenda items - I assume everyone here has read my blog posting [2007-09-01 23:03:28] -- by the way, please yell if you are paying attention [2007-09-01 23:03:48] (I want to see who's going to actively participate) [2007-09-01 23:03:49] umm, not everybody at once :P [2007-09-01 23:04:03] not yelling, but I'm here :) [2007-09-01 23:04:04] -->| Sugnim (Choob@D6978654.4A1375D5.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:04:37] -->| Silver (james@D6978654.4A1375D5.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:04:38] anyone else actively here? [2007-09-01 23:04:38] =-= Mode #venkman +qo Silver Silver by ChanServ [2007-09-01 23:04:45] Silver! [2007-09-01 23:04:52] Hello. [2007-09-01 23:04:53] :p [2007-09-01 23:05:00] (that's the raspberry, Gijs) [2007-09-01 23:05:08] aha. [2007-09-01 23:05:20] I'm listening now - but a newbie. [2007-09-01 23:05:21] well, ok. [2007-09-01 23:05:29] * Silver wouldn't trust his connection this evening. [2007-09-01 23:05:32] so, right now Venkman on trunk is not very usable [2007-09-01 23:05:36] Silver: noted. :) [2007-09-01 23:06:15] I noted a few high-visibility bustages on my blog, but I haven't filed bugs on them or checked to see if any of them were filed yet [2007-09-01 23:06:26] -->| Mook (mook@moz-95661F51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:06:30] :p [2007-09-01 23:07:44] so the first question I have is: who here is willing to lay down a few hours or days of time bringing Venkman back to usability? [2007-09-01 23:07:49] WeirdAl: from what I heard (didn't check myself), some grave bugs are filed as well [2007-09-01 23:08:05] -->| mao (mao@moz-E0DB377C.b2b.tiscali.it) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:08:47] I am, for the record, willing to spend a bit of time, now that 299716 is out of the way [2007-09-01 23:08:58] unfortunately, the areas I can help with don't go into the real code - and I'm overworked already [2007-09-01 23:09:42] ... [2007-09-01 23:09:50] -->| Sugnim (Choob@D6978654.4A1375D5.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:09:56] -->| mcsmurf (mcsmurf@moz-69A170CA.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:10:16] mcsmurf: dunno if you caught my question, asking for volunteers [2007-09-01 23:10:20] WeirdAl: I think there are a few patches on Bugzilla even, including ones from Silver, that just are missing reviews [2007-09-01 23:10:25] -->| erik (erik@moz-901391AC.access.telenet.be) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:10:29] WeirdAl: no my connection dropped [2007-09-01 23:10:40] erik welcome [2007-09-01 23:11:13] as I said yesterday, I'm willing to do reviews [2007-09-01 23:11:24] KaiRo: that's half the problem - I don't think anyone here except possibly Silver or Gijs is familiar with the current state of affairs [2007-09-01 23:11:24] anyone other than WeirdAl willing to spend some time working on venkman? [2007-09-01 23:11:38] I simply can't promise gigantic committments of time. [2007-09-01 23:11:46] (where I would also write extensive patches) [2007-09-01 23:11:47] ditto [2007-09-01 23:11:51] =-= Standard8Away is now known as Standard8 [2007-09-01 23:12:02] |<-- Sugnim has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-01 23:12:04] hehe, what do you consider extensive? [2007-09-01 23:12:21] uh, well, some of these things take more than "a little tinkering" to fix right. [2007-09-01 23:12:33] (notably the tab switching issue, which was caused by some annoying API changes) [2007-09-01 23:12:37] The tab-switching on trunk is a very hard bug to fix. [2007-09-01 23:12:49] that's another way to put it :) [2007-09-01 23:12:50] -->| Sugnim (Choob@D6978654.4A1375D5.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:12:56] heh, ok [2007-09-01 23:13:02] I can probably take that one on then [2007-09-01 23:13:09] Most other things I know of I've already done probably-review+ level patches for or are not too hard. [2007-09-01 23:13:11] * Gijs thinks Silver has a patch. [2007-09-01 23:13:27] is there a bug for the tab switch issue? [2007-09-01 23:13:44] I can't load Bugzilla, but I don't think so. [2007-09-01 23:13:46] I don't see one [2007-09-01 23:14:12] no, there doesn't seem to be. [2007-09-01 23:14:18] And I don't have anything for that bug I'm willing to contribute at this time. [2007-09-01 23:14:30] noted Silver [2007-09-01 23:14:52] -->| Pete_Kirkham (chatzilla@moz-E8D0490A.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:14:54] =-= Pete_Kirkham is now known as Pete [2007-09-01 23:15:03] Silver: would you consider submitting the review+ level patches with WeirdAl and me reviewing them (quickly, as opposed to waiting for ages for rginda or shaver) [2007-09-01 23:15:08] ? [2007-09-01 23:15:27] Gijs: I was refering to the ones in Bugzilla, which have been waiting for review for upwards of a year in some cases. [2007-09-01 23:15:31] you sure you want me to review? ;) [2007-09-01 23:15:57] I think they should mostly be acceptable, and unlikely to have significant issues if not directly acceptable. [2007-09-01 23:16:05] right. [2007-09-01 23:16:38] that'd be cool to start with [2007-09-01 23:16:53] then, something I only just read in WeirdAl's blog post, the 5 source tabs - I've never noticed this? [2007-09-01 23:17:06] * Gijs is pretty sure vnk can handle more tabs [2007-09-01 23:17:13] filed as bug 394584 [2007-09-01 23:17:23] Gijs: I've kinda known about it for years [2007-09-01 23:17:31] it is a real problem [2007-09-01 23:17:48] WeirdAl: Change the source2View.maxTabs pref. :P [2007-09-01 23:17:51] though Linux yesterday acted differently than Windows as I recall. [2007-09-01 23:17:51] If anyone feels like reviewing it, bug 392475 would address one of WeirdAl's other issues - building venkman as an xpi in-tree. Although it then means 2 methods of building, it'd at least give us something in the meantime. [2007-09-01 23:18:12] Bug 394584 [Switching tabs for panels like Breakpoints/ Call Stack doesn't work anymore] filed by ajvincent@gmail.com. [2007-09-01 23:18:15] * Silver has no idea why it's set to 5 by default. [2007-09-01 23:18:19] |<-- cs has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-01 23:18:35] well, maybe we can incorporate something like Firefox's tab overflow capability [2007-09-01 23:18:50] then we could dump the pref altogether [2007-09-01 23:18:55] Start with things you can do. [2007-09-01 23:19:12] * Silver would drop the pref before working on overflow. [2007-09-01 23:19:17] hehe [2007-09-01 23:19:19] yeah, so first of all we should file a bug to change that pref then, at least it'll get rid of that item. [2007-09-01 23:19:19] ok [2007-09-01 23:19:33] * Gijs is willing to patch that, so please ASSI me and CC rginda [2007-09-01 23:19:49] -->| KaiRo2 (chatzilla@moz-F2134722.gumpendorf.xdsl-line.inode.at) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:20:02] ok, so, I haven't heard anyone objecting to me reviewing [2007-09-01 23:20:06] what would be the best thing to do? [2007-09-01 23:20:19] do I just review things, or do we file a bug to get peer modifications for WeirdAl and me? [2007-09-01 23:20:28] Gijs: well, let me ask a question. [2007-09-01 23:20:33] go for it. [2007-09-01 23:21:01] specifically, what sort of patches do we realistically think we can get reviewed for 1.9? That should be a limiting factor on what we try to review imho [2007-09-01 23:21:23] reviewed, just about everything [2007-09-01 23:21:30] last I checked there were no *huge* patches in the queue. [2007-09-01 23:21:31] my API concern is much lessened now that I've thought about it a bit [2007-09-01 23:21:39] if I'm wrong then someone please yell. [2007-09-01 23:22:20] Bug 394584 [Switching tabs for panels like Breakpoints/Call Stack doesn' t work anymore]: James Ross changed Severity from 'normal' to 'major', Version from 'unspecified' to 'Trunk'. [2007-09-01 23:22:31] -->| cs (chatzilla@moz-6197DF1E.aep.bellsouth.net) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:22:48] Gijs: in any case, the current bug list needs triage, I think [2007-09-01 23:22:51] 136 bugs is a lot [2007-09-01 23:23:04] * Silver sees 140. :D [2007-09-01 23:23:08] WeirdAl: I think javadoc'd functions are hopeless given it hasn't been done at all... but we could try. [2007-09-01 23:23:11] yeah yeah [2007-09-01 23:23:17] * Gijs sees 138 [2007-09-01 23:23:28] there's a couple of security sensitive ones. [2007-09-01 23:23:32] * Silver knows there's at least one security bug on his list. [2007-09-01 23:23:37] * Gijs knows about 2 :) [2007-09-01 23:23:40] Gijs: all I'm saying is for patches going forward, asking for JavaDoc is a good idea [2007-09-01 23:23:48] yeah, I'm not on the security list :| [2007-09-01 23:23:53] * Gijs is not fond of javadoc, but oh well [2007-09-01 23:23:57] we're not either, WeirdAl [2007-09-01 23:24:01] but we have CCs on some of those bugs [2007-09-01 23:24:04] If Bugzilla was working, I'd CC you WeirdAl. :( [2007-09-01 23:24:05] what's your bugmail address? [2007-09-01 23:24:10] ajvincent@gmail.com [2007-09-01 23:24:10] |<-- Sugnim has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-01 23:24:11] Well, if my 'net that is. [2007-09-01 23:24:23] * Silver is having no luck loading most pages. [2007-09-01 23:24:45] without going into details, are these classified bugs legitimate 1.9 blockers? (Not Venkman blockers, but 1.9 blockers.) [2007-09-01 23:25:04] -->| Sugnim (Choob@D6978654.4A1375D5.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:25:10] one has blocking1.9? [2007-09-01 23:25:46] the other one has nothing [2007-09-01 23:25:56] we need to follow up on that [2007-09-01 23:26:03] but apparently one of Silver's patches in some other bug fixes it all [2007-09-01 23:26:05] the request was set last November [2007-09-01 23:26:12] WeirdAl: as venkman doesn't ship with the official Gecko releases AFAIK (which happen to be the Firefox releases), Gecko freezes should not really affect us here [2007-09-01 23:26:14] right. [2007-09-01 23:26:20] Gijs: My patch works around the limitations in SpiderMonkey. [2007-09-01 23:26:23] and yeah, that's a general point. [2007-09-01 23:26:37] But it has benefits to Vnk, other than just preventing that "exploit". [2007-09-01 23:26:40] all I'm saying is we should look into it [2007-09-01 23:26:43] Silver: I know that, but given we want venkman to be secure and usable on releases before 1.9, I want that patch anyway. [2007-09-01 23:26:45] pronto [2007-09-01 23:26:46] right. [2007-09-01 23:27:15] Standard8: also, the same point KaiRo (`) just made is applicable to your patch as well - it breaks compat with existing seamonkey and suite versions, and that's Not Very Nice. [2007-09-01 23:27:23] okay, so: Gijs + me for patches, Gijs for reviews, maybe me as well [2007-09-01 23:27:29] did I miss anyone? [2007-09-01 23:27:41] Gijs: Can you PM me the summaries of the two security-marked bugs? I can only recall the details of one of them. [2007-09-01 23:27:56] Silver: sure, but the summaries are not so good. [2007-09-01 23:28:00] Gijs, err, how? [2007-09-01 23:28:08] |<-- Silver has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-01 23:28:10] off channel please [2007-09-01 23:28:17] it'd be good if we could get more people doing patches [2007-09-01 23:28:28] Gijs: most assuredly, that's why I'm asking [2007-09-01 23:28:28] Standard8: you remove the separate sm/ folder from being jarred up. [2007-09-01 23:28:33] in the makexpi.sh script. [2007-09-01 23:28:47] (I just had a quick look, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like) [2007-09-01 23:28:56] -->| Silver (james@D6978654.4A1375D5.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:28:57] =-= Mode #venkman +qo Silver Silver by ChanServ [2007-09-01 23:28:58] Gijs: are there any parts of the XPI that go through XUL preprocessing? [2007-09-01 23:29:00] * Silver mutters. [2007-09-01 23:29:01] Gijs, but that is replaced by something else I believe. AFAIK the two xpis should be the same [2007-09-01 23:29:17] Standard8: mmk, will look better later. [2007-09-01 23:29:28] |<-- Sugnim has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-01 23:29:29] WeirdAl: not that I know of. [2007-09-01 23:29:41] Great! [2007-09-01 23:29:44] Gijs, see venkman/resources/jar.mn - it adds them back in there. [2007-09-01 23:30:00] Gijs, makes it easier on all the processing [2007-09-01 23:30:15] -->| Silver2 (james@D3AA6DF6.F391FD06.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:30:15] =-= Mode #venkman +qo Silver2 Silver2 by ChanServ [2007-09-01 23:30:27] KaiRo: you run a SeaMonkey build system - would you be willing to package up nightlies for us? [2007-09-01 23:30:36] Silver2: did you get my pm at all? [2007-09-01 23:30:47] one hot issue for me that probably also would affect multiple patches is which versions of Gecko and Gecko-based apps are we staying campatible with trunk venkman? [2007-09-01 23:30:49] |<-- Silver2 has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-01 23:31:22] -->| Silver2 (james@D3AA6DF6.F391FD06.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:31:22] =-= Mode #venkman +qo Silver2 Silver2 by ChanServ [2007-09-01 23:31:37] * KaiRo2 goes back to xchat being KaiRo - this here is just testing source L10n (which I can get venkman to have as well) [2007-09-01 23:31:53] * Gijs wants compat with at least Fx 2.0 and trunk and SeaMonkey 1.x [2007-09-01 23:31:57] Gijs: I think we should whack the install.rdf for AMO's version so that it stops supporting Fx3 [2007-09-01 23:32:01] |<-- KaiRo2 has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [SeaMonkey 2.0a1pre/2007090123]) [2007-09-01 23:32:15] |<-- Silver2 has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-01 23:32:16] as I mentioned earlier, it's just broken on trunk [2007-09-01 23:32:26] |<-- Silver has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-01 23:32:32] but if we just fix trunk and make no drastic changes, I believe the trunk version works on most things you can get your hands on. [2007-09-01 23:32:55] (including Moz 1.7, Fx 1.0 and 1.5, etc.) [2007-09-01 23:32:57] we can put the trunk version in for a backport then [2007-09-01 23:33:09] WeirdAl: eh, what do you mean? [2007-09-01 23:33:11] * WeirdAl shrugs - he doesn't care that much [2007-09-01 23:33:29] (with trunk version and backport, I just don't understand) [2007-09-01 23:33:32] when we make a trunk XPI and submit it to AMO, we can keep that one for Moz1.7+ [2007-09-01 23:33:41] -->| Silver2 (james@D3AA6DF6.F391FD06.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:33:41] =-= Mode #venkman +qo Silver2 Silver2 by ChanServ [2007-09-01 23:33:42] =-= Silver2 is now known as Silver [2007-09-01 23:33:47] and it should probably replace the one that's up there now [2007-09-01 23:34:02] mm, but preferably after fixing it to actually work properly with trunk? [2007-09-01 23:34:08] of course [2007-09-01 23:34:15] |<-- Silver has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-01 23:34:19] WeirdAl: I can do nightlies [2007-09-01 23:34:24] jeebs, that's no good. [2007-09-01 23:34:27] -->| Sugnim (Choob@D3AA6DF6.F391FD06.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:34:31] (the connection being crappy. [2007-09-01 23:34:32] Gijs: hmm? [2007-09-01 23:34:37] oh [2007-09-01 23:34:48] KaiRo: great - how soon can you start? ;) [2007-09-01 23:34:50] WeirdAl: at least in some way [2007-09-01 23:34:55] -->| Silver2 (james@D3AA6DF6.F391FD06.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:34:55] =-= Mode #venkman +qo Silver2 Silver2 by ChanServ [2007-09-01 23:34:56] =-= Silver2 is now known as Silver [2007-09-01 23:34:57] (including posting them for consumption) [2007-09-01 23:35:02] KaiRo: that'd be good. Do you have scripts or whatever so it only does nightlies after changes? [2007-09-01 23:35:20] KaiRo: vnk doesn't need constant rebuilds [2007-09-01 23:35:24] MoFo should donate Silver a new internet connection :) [2007-09-01 23:35:25] Gijs: I have no scripts yet, but I can look into getting something up [2007-09-01 23:35:27] |<-- Silver has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-01 23:35:36] mcsmurf: it's not usually this crappy [2007-09-01 23:35:40] mcsmurf: not sure what's up today [2007-09-01 23:35:43] I hope so :D [2007-09-01 23:36:02] -->| Silver2 (james@D3AA6DF6.F391FD06.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:36:02] =-= Mode #venkman +qo Silver2 Silver2 by ChanServ [2007-09-01 23:36:05] =-= Silver2 is now known as Silver [2007-09-01 23:36:30] anyway, I'll file a bug to get WeirdAl and me listed as peers for Vnk, so at least it gets active reviewers [2007-09-01 23:36:34] does that sound like a plan? [2007-09-01 23:36:35] Gijs: I can look into maybe getting one of my SeaMonkey tinderboxen up to do a regular run of makexpi.sh and post the result on ftp.m.o [2007-09-01 23:36:41] |<-- Silver has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-01 23:36:51] Gijs: go for it [2007-09-01 23:37:10] KaiRo: yeah, Silver already has scripts of some sort to do ChatZilla nightlies that only get rebuilt after checkins, if you ask nicely maybe he'll share them and they'd be adaptable for Vnk [2007-09-01 23:37:18] (not sure if they would be, but you could check, I'd guess) [2007-09-01 23:37:25] what's been the standing rule for reviews on Venkman anyway - has it generally needed sr in the past or two r's? [2007-09-01 23:37:29] |<-- Sugnim has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-01 23:37:38] only 1 r+ [2007-09-01 23:37:54] and no sr... good, that'll make things easier [2007-09-01 23:37:57] same for chatzilla. [2007-09-01 23:38:00] mm. [2007-09-01 23:38:09] more unstable, but... ;) [2007-09-01 23:38:15] it can't get much worse. [2007-09-01 23:39:01] * Gijs wonders where to file a bug like this [2007-09-01 23:39:46] -->| Sugnim (Choob@DEF3A18A.8328A175.CB681AA.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:40:00] WeirdAl: you have a cvs account? [2007-09-01 23:40:04] well, I'm already an unlisted peer for Composer and de facto peer on Inspector [2007-09-01 23:40:10] Gijs: no, I keep putting that off... [2007-09-01 23:40:14] my earlier question about compat was because I think it would really be nice to enable venkman to be a good player in the new-toolkit world and I wonder what to test with. additionally, I guess it depends what infrastructure you people can depend on for real code fixes [2007-09-01 23:40:24] WeirdAl: you'll need that for any changes in despot we want to make. [2007-09-01 23:40:40] *sigh* ok, I'll see about resurrecting that bug. [2007-09-01 23:40:58] WeirdAl: you should really apply for a CVS account finally - it's not _that_ hard [2007-09-01 23:41:05] WeirdAl: even myself got a CVS account [2007-09-01 23:41:10] so you can get one, too :) [2007-09-01 23:41:11] I did apply, I just need to make SSH keys [2007-09-01 23:41:11] * Gijs actually thinks normally the owner and such just agree about new peers [2007-09-01 23:41:26] Gijs: except who's the owner? ;) [2007-09-01 23:41:39] rginda is still owner [2007-09-01 23:41:39] Gijs: I think so, yes... but I think rginda is not very active [2007-09-01 23:41:42] and he will say yes [2007-09-01 23:41:47] he's around occasionally. [2007-09-01 23:41:54] ah, ok [2007-09-01 23:42:03] just doesn't actually review stuff or make patches [2007-09-01 23:42:27] according to nickserv he was on this server on august 28 [2007-09-01 23:42:28] so he's owner for occasionally saying yes? :P [2007-09-01 23:42:35] let's move on a bit [2007-09-01 23:42:39] which is 3 days ago, which is not that bad. [2007-09-01 23:42:41] point. [2007-09-01 23:43:21] we should try to schedule a BugDay or something where you and I clean the bug list up [2007-09-01 23:43:26] |<-- Sugnim has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-01 23:43:41] with help of volunteers, I presume [2007-09-01 23:43:43] how about tomorrow? [2007-09-01 23:43:47] if we can get them [2007-09-01 23:44:00] tomorrow works, aside from Church [2007-09-01 23:44:04] (I'm not kidding, either - next week uni starts and tomorrow I actually have free time) [2007-09-01 23:44:15] fair enough, when do you get back from church? [2007-09-01 23:44:32] I haven't decided what time to go yet ;) Figure me being offline for about 3 hours. [2007-09-01 23:44:36] midmorning [2007-09-01 23:44:50] yeah, so maybe, 1pm PST? [2007-09-01 23:45:01] 1 pm PDT, yeah [2007-09-01 23:45:09] * Gijs realizes he actually doesn't know where you are, timezone wise [2007-09-01 23:45:20] heh, PDT [2007-09-01 23:45:25] I'm in San Jose, CA [2007-09-01 23:45:27] hrm, ok. [2007-09-01 23:45:38] I would actually prefer earlier if possible, but if you're in PDT that's mostly out, I guess. [2007-09-01 23:45:47] if you can make noon that'd be great, but other than that [2007-09-01 23:45:48] well, I can try to be here earlier [2007-09-01 23:45:56] * Gijs guesses he could try to start on his own. [2007-09-01 23:46:00] so, also [2007-09-01 23:46:08] please remember we don't have to sync with browser releases [2007-09-01 23:46:12] we're an extension [2007-09-01 23:46:22] especially where firefox and xr are concerned [2007-09-01 23:46:35] that *is* something I was worried about, how checkin policy will impact us [2007-09-01 23:46:38] so if we want to release a new version 3 weeks after Fx 3 is out, then we can. [2007-09-01 23:46:46] we can always check in on trunk. [2007-09-01 23:46:53] this is how chatzilla and venkman work right now [2007-09-01 23:46:58] post-1.9 trunk moves to Hg, I thought [2007-09-01 23:46:58] we just update trunk [2007-09-01 23:47:11] we change the install.rdf and similar files when we release [2007-09-01 23:47:14] push to AMO and homepages [2007-09-01 23:47:16] and that's that. [2007-09-01 23:47:20] cool [2007-09-01 23:47:41] in the past we've sometimes asked for a backport to stable branches of seamonkey [2007-09-01 23:47:47] usually we don't get permission for that though [2007-09-01 23:47:52] in particular because we would cause l10n changes [2007-09-01 23:47:58] which then means trouble. [2007-09-01 23:48:03] yeah... :( [2007-09-01 23:48:22] for stability updates to vnk we could ask approval for backports, though [2007-09-01 23:48:26] that shouldn't be a problem. [2007-09-01 23:48:33] (I hope) [2007-09-01 23:48:35] anyway [2007-09-01 23:48:39] I have no idea how to use hg yet [2007-09-01 23:48:45] I've heard both good and bad stories [2007-09-01 23:48:50] so for the six items on my blog entry, two of them aren't Venkman's fault [2007-09-01 23:48:51] and I'm putting it off until I need to worry about it :) [2007-09-01 23:48:54] one we just filed a bug on [2007-09-01 23:49:22] from what I hear, cvs will live on indefinately for everyoen who wants/needs it [2007-09-01 23:49:23] bullet point one (missing play, stop, step) concerns me a bit - is that one filed? [2007-09-01 23:49:38] I think it probably has to do with how you launched vnk? [2007-09-01 23:49:49] Gijs: window.open, baby :) [2007-09-01 23:49:49] I'd presume that the actual command used from the menu items adds flags or whatever that you didn't use. [2007-09-01 23:50:17] could be [2007-09-01 23:50:24] worth looking into [2007-09-01 23:51:13] bullet point five, did you say you'd tackle that one? [2007-09-01 23:51:38] * Gijs notes http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/extensions/venkman/resources/content/venkman-overlay.js#43 [2007-09-01 23:52:13] great, another app-specific function [2007-09-01 23:52:15] so yeah, instead of "chrome" try "all,dialog=no" [2007-09-01 23:52:31] it's not app-specific. It's present in Fx and Suite, and as far as I can tell the implementations are the same. [2007-09-01 23:52:35] at least, I'd assume they are. [2007-09-01 23:52:39] -->| Sugnim (Choob@5D97E3AD.A0591FF4.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:52:43] and in Tb, now that I mention it [2007-09-01 23:52:44] it's a problem for XR apps though [2007-09-01 23:53:06] well, if you feel like complaining, file a bug to have all of them moved to toolkit/something :) [2007-09-01 23:53:17] I'm halfway tempted to do just that [2007-09-01 23:53:20] (which is the Right way to fix that as far as I'm concerned) [2007-09-01 23:53:22] go for it! [2007-09-01 23:53:34] please CC me, I'd be interested to see if that's possible. :) [2007-09-01 23:53:52] code duplication sucks anyway. [2007-09-01 23:53:54] similarly, consolidating the menu_ToolsPopup or whatever it's called into a toolkit-based overlay file [2007-09-01 23:54:16] which specific apps then overlay. Second-generation overlays do work... [2007-09-01 23:54:50] I'm running out of stuff to talk about [2007-09-01 23:55:06] well, you can file the bug about that, especially since I'm not entirely sure what you want to do [2007-09-01 23:55:10] anyone want to throw other contributions out here? [2007-09-01 23:55:10] I'll file the bug about the dumb pref [2007-09-01 23:55:15] and we'll do triage tomorrow? [2007-09-01 23:55:23] -->| Silver2 (james@5D97E3AD.A0591FF4.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-01 23:55:23] =-= Mode #venkman +qo Silver2 Silver2 by ChanServ [2007-09-01 23:55:24] =-= Silver2 is now known as Silver [2007-09-01 23:55:30] Silver: wb. [2007-09-01 23:55:34] welcome back, James [2007-09-01 23:56:02] It's like using IP-over-pidgeon-over-courier-over-ship. [2007-09-01 23:56:12] I just realized, if you want to be compatible only with 1.8 branch and later, you can rely on the app implementing nsIXULAppInfo [2007-09-01 23:56:15] oh, boy, I don't want to post a complete transcript of this... [2007-09-01 23:56:18] * Silver doubt's he'll be here long. :) [2007-09-01 23:56:41] KaiRo: that's good... 1.7 has been EOL'd anyway, and 1.5 will be soon [2007-09-01 23:56:47] if not already done [2007-09-01 23:56:55] WeirdAl: If it helps, you can skip all my ping outs/connection resets and rejoins. ;) [2007-09-01 23:57:08] as SeaMonkey 1.x implements nsIXULAppInfo even though it's still xpfe [2007-09-01 23:57:20] |<-- Standard8 has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Quit: time for z) [2007-09-01 23:57:35] err, 1.8 will be EOL'd soon if not already, and we can focus on 1.8.1, 1.9 [2007-09-01 23:58:17] WeirdAl: yes, but I think 1.8 vs. 1.8.1 is not much of a change for virtually anything you need [2007-09-01 23:58:46] * Gijs doesn't really like breaking backwards compat actively for things that still work. [2007-09-01 23:58:50] If you go for 1.8.1, there's no reason to not also include 1.8 AFAIK. [2007-09-01 23:59:01] ok, ok, ok [2007-09-01 23:59:01] Bug 394589 [Remove / change max source tab pref] filed by Gijs Kruitbosch. [2007-09-01 23:59:04] I mean, if we have to then sure. [2007-09-01 23:59:09] Silver: yes, I think that's doesn't make much difference [2007-09-01 23:59:13] but it *used* to work [2007-09-01 23:59:25] * WeirdAl backs off [2007-09-01 23:59:26] 1.8 vs. anything older is probably a major difference [2007-09-01 23:59:34] and as far as I can tell we'll need if statements and other crap to make things continue to work on trunk and 1.8 [2007-09-01 23:59:49] * Gijs doesn't see why it wouldn't start working on older things as well, in that case :) [2007-09-01 23:59:52] * Silver notes, slightly related only, that anything that doesn't work on the platforms ChatZilla works on is absolutely not use to him, for fairly obvious reasons. [2007-09-02 00:00:42] Gijs: sure, but dropping older things might still lead to significant cleanup - esp. as e.g. you could drop detecting the hosting app in any other way than nsIXULAppInfo [2007-09-02 00:00:43] Gijs: so I'm pretty much done with my soapbox here; tonight (after a nap - this heat is killing me) I'll start work on that tab patch [2007-09-02 00:01:50] KaiRo: I think you overestimate the amount of complexity added by the backwards compat. But we'll see what happens. [2007-09-02 00:02:06] Gijs: yes, maybe I do [2007-09-02 00:02:21] Indeed, in ChatZilla the XULAppInfo block is basically the same size as the non-XULAppInfo block. [2007-09-02 00:02:28] WeirdAl: seems OK. I'm a bit confused about the review/ownership thing, because rginda isn't here *now* so we can't ask sfa. [2007-09-02 00:02:40] hopefully the new JS engine will give Venkman a nice speed kick [2007-09-02 00:02:41] Silver: you're a peer for Vnk in despot, right? [2007-09-02 00:02:50] Gijs: Yes. [2007-09-02 00:03:06] mcsmurf: you mean Tamarin? [2007-09-02 00:03:11] My interwebs are basically not working, so please don't ask me to do anything with that power. [2007-09-02 00:03:16] if that is the name [2007-09-02 00:03:17] then yes :) [2007-09-02 00:03:23] Silver: would you feel comfortable adding me as a peer there, as well, when your internet is working again? :) [2007-09-02 00:03:30] I don't even want to think about Tamarin right now :) [2007-09-02 00:03:32] mcsmurf: I suspect not. [2007-09-02 00:03:35] (I'd ask to add weirdal but he doesn't have a cvs account atm) [2007-09-02 00:03:37] Silver: not? [2007-09-02 00:03:40] well, I dont know [2007-09-02 00:03:47] everyone says it's faster [2007-09-02 00:03:50] at least from the JS guys [2007-09-02 00:03:50] Gijs: I'll start straightening that up soonish [2007-09-02 00:03:51] ;-) [2007-09-02 00:03:52] Tamarin will just break vnk. :) [2007-09-02 00:04:07] mcsmurf: In ChatZilla, which has a complicated event pumping system all in JS, the /huge/ majority of time is spent waiting for DOM appendChild calls to complete and similar. [2007-09-02 00:04:09] Gijs: uh huh. :( [2007-09-02 00:04:14] Gijs: and it will break faster than ever :P [2007-09-02 00:04:22] mm. [2007-09-02 00:04:27] mcsmurf: Vnk has an even more complicated UI/DOM manipulation. [2007-09-02 00:04:29] hmm [2007-09-02 00:04:46] so DOM is the part that's slow? [2007-09-02 00:04:48] Silver: any reason why? [2007-09-02 00:04:49] yes. [2007-09-02 00:04:51] DOM calls are slow. [2007-09-02 00:04:56] |<-- Sugnim has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-02 00:04:57] So making the JS go faster is, from my profiling, very unlikely to significantly affect overall performance. [2007-09-02 00:05:01] WeirdAl: DOM is ridiculously slow. [2007-09-02 00:05:17] WeirdAl: XPCOM boundaries, and Gecko reflowing. [2007-09-02 00:05:25] the reason Firebug in some cases is a bit faster than Venkman is because it uses innerHTML [2007-09-02 00:05:27] (I kid you not) [2007-09-02 00:05:42] ugh [2007-09-02 00:05:48] Silver: so I'd better try not to use then, huh? :( [2007-09-02 00:06:00] and I thought the story goes like this: "And Mozilla was dropped and Firefox was created; all the bloat went away and it's faaaast..." ;-) [2007-09-02 00:06:22] mcsmurf: no, it's more like "all UI bloat went away but the backend was still as slow as ever" [2007-09-02 00:06:26] WeirdAl: Well, you can use anything you like; just so long as you remember each DOM call to change the DOM is likely the slowest thing in any block of code by a reasonable factor. :) [2007-09-02 00:06:38] anyway, this wasn't supposed to be a "let's all piss on gecko" discussion [2007-09-02 00:06:47] let's fix things and optimize later [2007-09-02 00:06:50] right. [2007-09-02 00:06:54] seriously [2007-09-02 00:06:59] don't think we actually had huge improvements in the last few month in Gecko terms of speed [2007-09-02 00:06:59] ok :) [2007-09-02 00:07:34] Gijs: (going back a bit) Yes, if Despot lets me, I'll add you as a peer. [2007-09-02 00:07:46] -->| Sugnim (Choob@5D97E3AD.A0591FF4.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-02 00:07:46] so, Gijs, Silver: what will be our criteria for the next AMO release? [2007-09-02 00:08:00] -->| Pete_Kirkham (chatzilla@moz-E8D0490A.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #venkman [2007-09-02 00:08:02] Silver: ta. [2007-09-02 00:08:16] Wow, got my Despot password right on the first go. :) [2007-09-02 00:08:39] WeirdAl: fairly simple. Something that actually works on Fx 2.0, stable seamonkey releases, Suite 1.7 if we can manage it, and trunk. [2007-09-02 00:08:49] Bug 394589 [Remove / change max source tab pref]: Gijs Kruitbosch changed Assigned To from 'Robert Ginda' to 'Gijs Kruitbosch'. [2007-09-02 00:09:00] WeirdAl: there have actually been feature additions last year, which are still not on AMO [2007-09-02 00:09:02] (by me) [2007-09-02 00:09:11] * WeirdAl nods [2007-09-02 00:09:28] so I don't really think we need to stress the bit where we try to cram new things in. [2007-09-02 00:09:33] oh, actually [2007-09-02 00:09:38] we should try to get Silver's patches in [2007-09-02 00:09:48] |<-- Pete has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-02 00:09:54] I mean, if we have the patches, I don't see why we should wait with putting them in and releasing something [2007-09-02 00:09:57] =-= Pete_Kirkham is now known as Pete [2007-09-02 00:10:01] (after review) [2007-09-02 00:10:14] as you said earlier, things can't get much worse from here :) [2007-09-02 00:10:29] right - and I'm not going to demand JavaDoc on old, old patches that would otherwise get r+ [2007-09-02 00:10:29] * Gijs would prefer an AMO release before 1.9, with a request in #devs or wherever to actually test that release. [2007-09-02 00:10:41] agreed [2007-09-02 00:10:50] Gijs: Your normal Bugzilla account the right one to add in Despot? [2007-09-02 00:10:57] Silver: minus the +bugs, yes. [2007-09-02 00:11:03] OK. [2007-09-02 00:11:15] Gijs: "OK, the partition has been updated." [2007-09-02 00:11:25] if you and I tag-team on this, Gijs, how long do you think it would take to do the next release? [2007-09-02 00:11:43] WeirdAl: depends mostly on the tab switching crap [2007-09-02 00:11:59] in other words, on me ;) [2007-09-02 00:12:05] I guess so :) [2007-09-02 00:12:18] familiar feeling... that's how it was with toolkit@m.o [2007-09-02 00:12:20] Silver: actually, would you be willing to review patches by me or WeirdAl? [2007-09-02 00:12:29] good question [2007-09-02 00:12:35] Gijs: Hmm. [2007-09-02 00:12:37] not true, you waited aaaaaaages for reviews there. [2007-09-02 00:13:02] * Gijs will try his best not to allow that to happen again. [2007-09-02 00:14:03] |<-- Sugnim has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Connection reset by peer) [2007-09-02 00:14:45] -->| Sugnim (Choob@5D97E3AD.A0591FF4.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-02 00:16:15] |<-- Pete has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-02 00:16:38] Silver: ?? [2007-09-02 00:17:09] I think his connection dropped again [2007-09-02 00:17:17] I'm here, for once. :P [2007-09-02 00:17:18] mm [2007-09-02 00:17:23] hahaha [2007-09-02 00:17:27] No bets on for how long for, though. [2007-09-02 00:17:39] I'm mainly worried about reviews. [2007-09-02 00:17:45] Silver: I thought you and Sugnim were on the same box? [2007-09-02 00:17:48] Anyway, I'm not sure I want to review things. [2007-09-02 00:17:58] Gijs: We are. *That* is how busted my 'net connection is. [2007-09-02 00:17:58] that's a fair statement [2007-09-02 00:18:20] ouch. (about the net connection) [2007-09-02 00:19:05] Gijs: I should note that I have a personal policy of trying to do reviews within 48 hours. I've been burned by long review cycles enough, thank you. :) [2007-09-02 00:19:08] Silver: about the reviews, fair enough. We'll see how things go for a while, then. [2007-09-02 00:19:09] I don't mind (as much) providing help, but actually reviewing things goes against the issues I have. [2007-09-02 00:19:39] mmk. [2007-09-02 00:20:35] |<-- Sugnim has left irc.mozilla.org:6697 (Ping timeout) [2007-09-02 00:21:21] what's left to talk about... oh, yeah, my "reference app" proposal [2007-09-02 00:21:43] =-= Mode #venkman +oh Gijs WeirdAl by Silver [2007-09-02 00:21:45] theoretically, that should be pretty easy to build out [2007-09-02 00:22:27] WeirdAl: the xpcshell tests would be pretty annoying to do, I think [2007-09-02 00:22:43] and it would have the additional benefit of showing XR app builders how-to-add-Venkman [2007-09-02 00:22:49] WeirdAl: you could ask timeless about the commandline debugger thing he wrote [2007-09-02 00:23:01] hm, I don't remember that debugger [2007-09-02 00:23:02] To test JSD itself, you'll need to spin up extra event pumps and stuff - it would be 'fun' to do in xpcshell. [2007-09-02 00:23:03] or owns or hacks or whatever [2007-09-02 00:23:27] WeirdAl: I think timeless is the only one who has anything close to a working copy [2007-09-02 00:23:32] it's not in the tree, to my knowledge [2007-09-02 00:23:39] well, it's two different types of tests, anyway [2007-09-02 00:23:56] right, but I think the app thing you described would take manual testing [2007-09-02 00:24:06] Gijs: maybe... [2007-09-02 00:24:08] which is muuuuuuch less likely to be done regularly than unit testing. [2007-09-02 00:24:13] there's casper.mozdev.org [2007-09-02 00:24:22] -- record/replay [2007-09-02 00:24:46] -->| Sugnim (Choob@5D97E3AD.A0591FF4.4B50E195.IP) has joined #venkman [2007-09-02 00:25:16] all I'm saying is we should try to do something for testability [2007-09-02 00:25:19] WeirdAl: that's implemented in js [2007-09-02 00:25:33] the js outside of venkman *dies* when you're stopped/paused in vnk. [2007-09-02 00:25:51]